Ok, so I think that it’s time for a follow up to my entry A Personal Relationship with Jesus. Now that I’m not writing out of frustration and have had a chance to collect my thoughts a little bit better and talk through this with some people (not to mention all the helpful and interesting comments to the post) I think I could now write a more coherent blog on my thoughts. So, here it goes…
First, allow me to say upfront that I do believe it is POSSIBLE to have an intimate/personal relationship with God/Jesus. It is clear throughout scripture (Old and New Testament) that God did have very intimate and personal relationships with His creation. I also believe that through Christ’s action on the cross “the curtain was torn” (as Rita graciously pointed out) – we CAN enter God’s presence. We CAN have the type of intimate relationship with him where we can ask anything of him and tell him anything. We CAN have full confidence to enter His throne room and know that we are forgiven and loved. Also through Christ’s redeeming actions we have now been given the gift of the Holy Spirit – God comes and makes His home with us and lives among us – we CAN personally talk with and walk with God through the Holy Spirit.
Second, I do believe that God desires for us to have a personal/intimate relationship with Him. In the beginning Adam and Eve “walked with God” in what seems to be a very intimate way so it seems that God’s original intention was for that sort of open, naked and unashamed type of relationship. God also has continually reached out to His creation calling them to Himself and ultimately making the way clear for them to come to Him through Jesus.
But, here’s where I was/am struggling… I think that it’s true that we can have a personal relationship with God (what good, good news!) and it’s true that God desires to have a personal relationship with us (even better news!), but I get frustrated when people (especially people in the church) tell others that they HAVE to have a personal relationship with God and it HAS to begin right now and it HAS to look a certain way, otherwise they aren’t “saved” (read: going to heaven). That bothers me.
First, I do believe that God desires relationship with us and calls us into relationship with Him, but I also believe that He does that incredibly graciously, He doesn’t force or push, in fact it seems to me from my personal experience, He knows and allows me to even pull away at times and He still works through that. In fact I think some of those times when I haven’t felt as “intimate” with God have been some of the most formative in my relationship with Him – He has used them to stretch me more into the person that He desires me to be and to reveal new truths about himself to me.
Second, I’m not sure that having a “personal relationship” with Jesus is really the mark of “being a Christian” or “being saved” or “going to heaven” – I think that someone who has a personal relationship with Jesus is probably a Christian and “saved” and “going to heaven” (whatever that means), but I think (at least right now at this stage in my journey) that there are many people who maybe don’t have what we would consider a “personal relationship” with Jesus but who God is still saving and who are “Christians”. And I don’t think that I have the right to say that they aren’t just because their relationship with God is more distant or more ritualistic instead of “personal”. So, it bothers me when people make having a “personal relationship” with Jesus the tell all sign of whether or not someone is saved – when they make it the end all be all – because personally I don’t think it is.
The third reason I struggle with this is that it seems to me when people say that we need to have a personal relationship with God they have a very clear picture of what that means and anything outside of their picture isn’t having a personal relationship with God. Basically they often seem to be saying that if you don’t read your Bible every day and don’t go to church every week then you must not have a personal relationship with Jesus – and personally I think that’s Bull****! (Please excuse my language, but I feel strongly about that) There are many ways to relate to God and many ways God chooses to speak to us. Yes, we have been given a great gift in having before us the very Word of God and we should cherish it and dive into it and allow God to speak to us through it, but it is not the only way to relate to God and my reading it or not reading it daily is not the only tell tale sign that I do or do not have a personal relationship with God. Same with church – we should meet with God’s people and we DEFINITELY need community to grow but I don’t believe that has to look like going to “church” in a church building every week and I don’t believe that if someone doesn’t do that they don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus.
It seems to me that God has many children whom he graciously allows to relate to Him in more distant ways (maybe just for a time or maybe for their whole lives), but they genuinely believe him and submit themselves to His Lordship and reign in their lives and genuinely seek to follow Him. And who am I to say that just because their relationship with God doesn’t fit my definition of “personal” (or even really isn’t personal but genuinely is more distant) who am I to say that they aren’t “saved” or to say that they have to change and start relating to God this other way and have this one type (i.e. personal) of relationship with God. Who am I do devalue God’s slow and gracious work in their lives?
I guess my problem isn’t so much with whether or not having a personal relationship with God is good – I think it is good and I would say that my own relationship with God has often been very personal and intimate. My problem is with saying that having a personal relationship (especially one that has to look a certain way) is necessary. My problem is with arrogance and not leaving room for people to be and relate to God in the way that works for them at that stage in their lives. It seems that God leaves a lot of space or us so why can’t we leave a lot of space for each other?
Rejoicing in the journey -
Beth Stedman
7 Comments
Usher: Hey Deak, I like this girl, she questions the status quo
Deacon: Sounds a lot like you Usher
Usher: But she’s got a great point, Deak. If God made every one of us unique – and he does – then how can one person tell the other person how to worship, what a personal relationship should be like, and when someone should do it, as though they actually know?
Deacon: There has to be some sort of order and guidance to all of it?
Usher: Why? So people can force you into a dead way of doing things, no spontaneity, nothing individual? I say bunk to that. We don’t need no stinkin’ bosses, we don’t need to empty rituals, we don’t need no tithe-taking know-it-all pastors, Deak. We need to get together to share Christ and nothing more. Last time I checked, relationship was personal and everyone’s relationship with anyone else is inherently unique.
i think personal is defined by all that above, beth. that it is truly personal…which means my relationship with Jesus looks different than yours or the other people at my church or your church, etc. i think that is the true definition of a christian – a personal relationship, meaning that its THEIRS and theirs alone. that it isn’t their parents, it isn’t their pastor’s relationship…its their own and they truly do own it.
there you go…those are my 2 cents.
I can agree with what you are saying. Only the Father Himself knows who his true Bride is. But He does give us some clues. The Bride loves the Groom and looks for His coming. You will also know them by their fruits. We all grow differently. And some of us even stop growing for a time. The good news is God Himself will finish the good work that HE began in us. HE is the faithful one. We’re just flakey, or perhaps I should just speak for myself!
Hello!
I just stumbled upon this site and entry so excuse the late reply.
I think what is missing here (and every point I read is very legitimate) is looking at the issue in terms of the QUALITY of the relationship.
God is often pictured in terms of a loving Father. We are His creation, His kin, His kids. So imagine YOUR relationship to YOUR kids (or parents if that applies better). As a parent, I am going to unconditionally love my kids no matter what they do. Even when they disobey, rebel, get in trouble – I will be there for them. I would prefer they DIDN’T do any of the above – but we all err at times.
Would I like to see them more often? Sure. Will I love them less because they have lives and families and relationships of their own? No. But I would certainly have a more intimate personal relationship with them if they confided in me, visited me and shared their lives with me more often.
I believe looking at your relationship with God is similar. If I occasionally visit with him in a prayer or conversation, I am not cultivating a strong relationship. That may be by design or by circumstances, but it remains true.
The real key here (IMHO) is whether you WANT the advantage of a close relationship or not. God will still love us, He’ll always wait for us when we wander. But WE suffer by His distance when that happens – not vice versa. God does not ‘need’ me in any manner shape or form- but He desires for me. He desires for intimacy and a sharing of what is going on in my life, as He does for even those who do not acknowledge Him at all. But He knows it has to come FROM us – not because we are forced to. He’s patient. He’ll be there. He’s not going anywhere. It’s us that are always on the go. Too busy for this, too busy for that – and it is US that suffer as a result.
My 2 cents worth!
David
Hi Beth
WELL SAID !!! I agree 100%. I have just argued with a Christian ’saved’ friend on this very issue and it got pretty heated. He has not responded to my texts since. I wonder about John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God……… etc. It seems to me that we are being told that ALL came into existence through the Word of God – as the Muslims say, “BE,” and it was. All is held in its very existence by that Word of God – incarnate in the Christ. And all will ‘return’ to God through that Word – Christ. It’s not about the ‘personal relationship’ that must fit a certain definition – or we must act in a certain way to be ’saved’. I think Christ’s true ‘victory’ is far, far, far, far greater than most self professing Christians give Christ/God credit for.
When I asked my friend about people who ‘do good’. Oh ‘good works’ alone are not enough. You MUST have a personal relationship with Jesus and give Him Lordship of your heart. I asked where these people got the inspiration, motivation, capacity to ‘do good’ at all without the ‘grace’ of Christ / God. He just couldn’t see where I was trying to come from. Or maybe he just doesn’t want to.
Me granny used to say, “God save us all from the bites of the cannibals.” Seems appropriate in certain other contexts at times. LOL
God bless everyone. God loves all. Of that there is no doubt. When we ‘judge’ anyone – we truly ‘judge’ our very self. And that includes, as far as I am concerned – ‘judging’ their so call ‘relationship’ with Jesus – Christ – God – Creator.
David, if you get back. You said, “But He knows it has to
come FROM us -
not because we are forced to. He’s patient. He’ll be there. He’s not going anywhere.”
How does it ‘come FROM us’ ? I am trying to get my head round the whole ‘grace’ thing these days. It would seem even the choice to ‘come FROM us’ is a choice initiated by grace of God, and realised by God’s grace ? I think that it is the power of LOVE itself that draws all souls to God, and we all have a very, very great responsibility to show God’s Love – God who is LOVE, to each other in this world. Love God, love the other as our self.
Few ‘creatures’ it seems to me, don’t respond positively to an experience of real and true ‘love’. I think the truly ’saved’ are those who have truly learned to ‘love’ as God intends – and they are then capable of truly sharing in God’s ’saving’ work – part of the true ‘priesthood’ of believers – self sacrificing love – after the model of their very own Jesus.
“When I am lifted up, I will raise ALL ‘men’ to Myself.”
Hi Paul
I discerned that the subject at hand was missing how CLOSE of a personal relationship we coveted with God (because of the original comment that “but I don’t believe that has to look like going to “church” in a church building every week and I don’t believe that if someone doesn’t do that they don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus”
My response was intended to show that joining in a community of other believers is one way of cultivating a closer relationship with God and that the responses I saw didn’t seem to center on the QUALITY of the relationship, only on how the relationship was being defined..
And you are right on with your comment – the idea of anything coming from us being dependent (or rather incumbent) upon us doing it by our own impulse would have the Calvinists in arms and I ALWAYS acknowledge that everything I do comes from God via His grace. But this is is a classic case of the idea it doesn’t have to be an “either/or” proposition, but is a both/and proposition. God leads (impels, compels) us but we have the ability to hold back, rebel, ignore. So God both compels AND I choose to respond. He still compels even if I DON’T respond and my point was if I choose to not respond IN DEPTH, it is I who suffers, not Him.
The important thing to remember is that Heaven awaits despite my mistakes on earth BUT the Kingdom of Heaven can be enjoyed by how I handle things here on earth. This is why the first and greatest commandment is Love God but the second is Love my neighbor. And to me, this includes how up close and personal I CHOOSE to get with Him while I am here. The closer I am, the more Heaven I experience on earth. (It’s a Dallas Willard type thing, if you ever tried to get a handle on his books).
Blessings,
David
So yes, the choice is initiated by God but we all grow in grace at different paces
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