I discerned that the subject at hand was missing how CLOSE of a personal relationship we coveted with God (because of the original comment that “but I don’t believe that has to look like going to “church” in a church building every week and I don’t believe that if someone doesn’t do that they don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus”

My response was intended to show that joining in a community of other believers is one way of cultivating a closer relationship with God and that the responses I saw didn’t seem to center on the QUALITY of the relationship, only on how the relationship was being defined..

And you are right on with your comment – the idea of anything coming from us being dependent (or rather incumbent) upon us doing it by our own impulse would have the Calvinists in arms and I ALWAYS acknowledge that everything I do comes from God via His grace. But this is is a classic case of the idea it doesn’t have to be an “either/or” proposition, but is a both/and proposition. God leads (impels, compels) us but we have the ability to hold back, rebel, ignore. So God both compels AND I choose to respond. He still compels even if I DON’T respond and my point was if I choose to not respond IN DEPTH, it is I who suffers, not Him.

The important thing to remember is that Heaven awaits despite my mistakes on earth BUT the Kingdom of Heaven can be enjoyed by how I handle things here on earth. This is why the first and greatest commandment is Love God but the second is Love my neighbor. And to me, this includes how up close and personal I CHOOSE to get with Him while I am here. The closer I am, the more Heaven I experience on earth. (It’s a Dallas Willard type thing, if you ever tried to get a handle on his books).

Blessings,
David

So yes, the choice is initiated by God but we all grow in grace at different paces

come FROM us -

not because we are forced to. He’s patient. He’ll be there. He’s not going anywhere.”

How does it ‘come FROM us’ ? I am trying to get my head round the whole ‘grace’ thing these days. It would seem even the choice to ‘come FROM us’ is a choice initiated by grace of God, and realised by God’s grace ? I think that it is the power of LOVE itself that draws all souls to God, and we all have a very, very great responsibility to show God’s Love – God who is LOVE, to each other in this world. Love God, love the other as our self.

Few ‘creatures’ it seems to me, don’t respond positively to an experience of real and true ‘love’. I think the truly ’saved’ are those who have truly learned to ‘love’ as God intends – and they are then capable of truly sharing in God’s ’saving’ work – part of the true ‘priesthood’ of believers – self sacrificing love – after the model of their very own Jesus.

“When I am lifted up, I will raise ALL ‘men’ to Myself.”

WELL SAID !!! I agree 100%. I have just argued with a Christian ’saved’ friend on this very issue and it got pretty heated. He has not responded to my texts since. I wonder about John 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God……… etc. It seems to me that we are being told that ALL came into existence through the Word of God – as the Muslims say, “BE,” and it was. All is held in its very existence by that Word of God – incarnate in the Christ. And all will ‘return’ to God through that Word – Christ. It’s not about the ‘personal relationship’ that must fit a certain definition – or we must act in a certain way to be ’saved’. I think Christ’s true ‘victory’ is far, far, far, far greater than most self professing Christians give Christ/God credit for.

When I asked my friend about people who ‘do good’. Oh ‘good works’ alone are not enough. You MUST have a personal relationship with Jesus and give Him Lordship of your heart. I asked where these people got the inspiration, motivation, capacity to ‘do good’ at all without the ‘grace’ of Christ / God. He just couldn’t see where I was trying to come from. Or maybe he just doesn’t want to.

Me granny used to say, “God save us all from the bites of the cannibals.” Seems appropriate in certain other contexts at times. LOL

God bless everyone. God loves all. Of that there is no doubt. When we ‘judge’ anyone – we truly ‘judge’ our very self. And that includes, as far as I am concerned – ‘judging’ their so call ‘relationship’ with Jesus – Christ – God – Creator.

I just stumbled upon this site and entry so excuse the late reply.

I think what is missing here (and every point I read is very legitimate) is looking at the issue in terms of the QUALITY of the relationship.

God is often pictured in terms of a loving Father. We are His creation, His kin, His kids. So imagine YOUR relationship to YOUR kids (or parents if that applies better). As a parent, I am going to unconditionally love my kids no matter what they do. Even when they disobey, rebel, get in trouble – I will be there for them. I would prefer they DIDN’T do any of the above – but we all err at times.

Would I like to see them more often? Sure. Will I love them less because they have lives and families and relationships of their own? No. But I would certainly have a more intimate personal relationship with them if they confided in me, visited me and shared their lives with me more often.

I believe looking at your relationship with God is similar. If I occasionally visit with him in a prayer or conversation, I am not cultivating a strong relationship. That may be by design or by circumstances, but it remains true.

The real key here (IMHO) is whether you WANT the advantage of a close relationship or not. God will still love us, He’ll always wait for us when we wander. But WE suffer by His distance when that happens – not vice versa. God does not ‘need’ me in any manner shape or form- but He desires for me. He desires for intimacy and a sharing of what is going on in my life, as He does for even those who do not acknowledge Him at all. But He knows it has to come FROM us – not because we are forced to. He’s patient. He’ll be there. He’s not going anywhere. It’s us that are always on the go. Too busy for this, too busy for that – and it is US that suffer as a result.

My 2 cents worth!

David

there you go…those are my 2 cents.

Deacon: Sounds a lot like you Usher

Usher: But she’s got a great point, Deak. If God made every one of us unique – and he does – then how can one person tell the other person how to worship, what a personal relationship should be like, and when someone should do it, as though they actually know?

Deacon: There has to be some sort of order and guidance to all of it?

Usher: Why? So people can force you into a dead way of doing things, no spontaneity, nothing individual? I say bunk to that. We don’t need no stinkin’ bosses, we don’t need to empty rituals, we don’t need no tithe-taking know-it-all pastors, Deak. We need to get together to share Christ and nothing more. Last time I checked, relationship was personal and everyone’s relationship with anyone else is inherently unique.